Q.   Do you recall for how long, approximately, 
             Mr. McCarthy was in front of the judge? 
                  A.   A few minutes.  They all take a few minutes.  I 
             couldn't say for sure, because I'm concerned about other 
                  Q.   What else are you doing at the time? 
                  A.   Trying to find out who's going to be next.  There 
             was a female prisoner already sitting in that hallway, if you 
             want to call it the hallway.  So I was watching her, and 
             finding out who was next. 
                  Q.   Approximately how wide is this hallway? 
                  A.   Four feet.  I don't know. 
                  Q.   Is there enough room for people to walk side by 
             side if they wanted to? 
                  A.   I guess you could, but it would be tight, probably. 
                  Q.   You said there was a female waiting in the hallway 
                  A.   Yes. 
                  Q.   She was seated? 
                  A.   Yes. 
                  Q.   So there was one or more chairs over there? 
                  A.   Usually there's one, for that reason, and also for 
             the remands that once they're remanded off the street, we 
             have to sit them there until they're processed and make up 
             the paperwork before Corrections will take them in.  So that 
             chair is there for that reason for the females because 
             they're not allowed to be kept in the back with the other 
             population, so that's why that chair was there.  Usually one 
             or two. 
                  Q.   Do you have any recollection of what was discussed 
             during Daniel McCarthy's court appearance on this day? 
                  A.   No.
                  Q.   In your experience, is it ever necessary for you to 
             become aware of events that transpire at a defendant's 
             specific court appearance? 
                  A.   No.  As a pen man, all you're interested in is 
             getting the card and bringing him back to the pen area and 
             Corrections does the rest. 
                  Q.   You say getting the card, you mean the 299? 
                  A.   Correct.  Once that's completed, I take that back 
             with the prisoner. 
                  Q.   So at the end of the court appearance I take it the 
             case would be adjourned for some reason? 
                  A.   At the end, yes. 
                  Q.   And the adjournment period and any other remarks 
             would be indicated on the 299 form? 
                  A.   Yes, the adjourn date, change of bail, the 
             adjournment part. 
                  Q.   Then the 299 would be returned from the desk 
             officer to whoever is supposed to escort the defendant back 
             in the direction of the feeder pens? 
                  A.   Into Corrections, yes. 
                  Q.   Now, were you aware that prior to your taking 
             custody, again, of Mr. McCarthy, were you aware that 
             Mr. McCarthy had a relative or a friend in the courtroom? 
                  A.   I was aware someone, a female was in the courtroom, 
             because early in the morning, a female did approach the rail, 
             asked me about a defendant, was he produced, and I believe 
             she also asked me if I knew who his attorney was.  And I 
             believe I gave her both information. 
                  Q.   At any time during or immediately after 
             Mr. McCarthy's court appearance, did you hear him say 
             anything to this or any other person in the courtroom proper? 
                  A.   Did I hear Mr. McCarthy say anything?  No. 
                  Q.   Did you hear any of the remarks on or off the 
             record of Judge Goodman with regard to this court appearance? 
                  A.   No. 
                  Q.   Nonetheless, at some point in time the custody of 
             Mr. McCarthy was returned to you, is that right? 
                  A.   After they were finished, yes. 
                  Q.   And it was returned to you by whom? 
                  A.   Ed Deutscher would tell him to step in. 
                  Q.   And did he give you the 299 card? 
                  A.   Ed doesn't have the 299 card. 
                  Q.   Only the desk sergeant does? 
                  A.   The desk officer. 
                  Q.   The desk officer, excuse me. 
                  A.   He's the one who's listening so he could write down 
             the date. 
                  Q.   Did you receive 299 card of Daniel McCarthy 
             directly from the desk officer? 
                  A.   I never got it. 
                  Q.   When typically would you have gotten it? 
                  A.   Normally, as I'm bringing him back, and that's what 
             he was doing, he was filling it out, as Mr. McCarthy stepped 
             into the hall area, stepped, now, he's in front of me, he's 
             between me and that female.  I'm waiting for the card to be 
             filled out. 
                  Q.   Would the desk officer generally get up from his 
             desk and bring it to you, or did you go to his--
                  A.   In this particular courtroom, you would have to, 
             because you have to go right by him, so he wouldn't have to 
             get up. 
                  Q.   So you would just go over and take it from him? 
                  A.   While I was passing him, I would wait until he 
             finishes it, tell the defendant to keep going and then go on. 
                  Q.   Could you return a defendant to the feeder cell 
             area without the card? 
                  A.   You could, but then Corrections can't do anything 
             with him until they get the card.  So for them to release the 
            prisoners out of that pen area so they could bring up more, 
             they need that card. 
                  Q.   On this particular occasion, what happened?  As 
             best as you can remember it. 
                  A.   Ed came around the wall, Mr. McCarthy went in front 
             of me.  He started heading back towards Corrections.  I'm 
             waiting for the card, I'm watching him.  He stops right 
             before the female.  I tell him keep going.  He just, he just 
             jumped.  Never said a word. 
                  Q.   Now, you said that the window doesn't start until 
             three or four or so feet off the ground, is that correct? 
                  A.   Yes. 
                  Q.   Were you able to see how he gained access to the 
                  A.   Yes. 
                  Q.   How did he do that? 
                  A.   He stepped on the radiator and used his hands and 
             he went out.  Just went out.  Pulled himself out.
                  Q.   And said absolutely nothing? 
                  A.   Said not a word.  Not a word.  I'm sorry. 
                  Q.   That's all right.  If you at any point you want to 
             take a break. 
                  A.   I'm all right. 
                  Q.   All right.  Upon seeing that, what did you do?
                  A.   Just sat down.  I mean, panic ensued.