Q.   I'm going to hand you what's been marked 
                    Plaintiff's Exhibit 11, and ask you what that is and to 
                    identify it. 
                            A.   Oh, yes, I definitely recognize number 11. 
                            Q.   What is it? 
                            A.   It is basically a letter saying, from Child 
                    Welfare for child neglect. 
                            Q.   What is the basis of their charges?
                            A.   The basis of their charges?
                            Q.   Actually, read the first two sentences.
                            A.   "This is to inform you that you are the 
                    subject of a report of suspected child abuse or 
                    maltreatment received by the State Child Abuse and 
                    Maltreatment Register on 12/11/2000.  This means that you 
                    have been identified as the person who is responsible for 
                    causing or allowing to inflict an injury abuse or 
                    maltreatment to the children." 
                            Q.   All right, now, when did you receive that 
                            A.   On December 11th. 
                            Q.   Is it your understanding that the basis  of 
                    that letter is your failure to vaccinate your daughter? 
                            A.   Yes. 
                            Q.   Have you been in contact with somebody from 
                    child protective services? 
                            A.   Yes, I have. 
                            Q.   And what have they told you? 
                            A.   They said that they had inquired about my 
                    daughter being out of school for a long period of time.  
                    Actually, at that time my daughter had the chicken pox, 
                    and the social worker met me, and she wanted to see my 
                    daughter as well.  So I was at a restaurant, we had met, 
                    she saw my daughter had the chicken pox.  I explained my 
                    daughter had the chicken pox and also there is a problem 
                    aside from that dealing with vaccination, and basically, 
                    I am dealing with that, and with lawyers and that I would 
                    update her as to the status of my situation. 
                            Q.   All right.  Your daughter has not been in 
                    school since November 30th.  How is she being educated? 
                            A.   My mother is a teacher, she has the 
                    curriculum for the second grade.  She had taught the 
                    second grade in the past and my daughter comes over to her 
                    house on weekends and one day a week I do bring her over.  
                            Q.   Is this the same education that she would be 
                    receiving if she were in school? 
                            A.   Yes, exactly.  Same education.
                            Q.   Why do you say that? 
                            A.   Because my mother is a teacher and she has 
                    the same curriculum that is given out and she teaches 
                    District 73 as well, that would be given out to second 
                            Q.   Do you think your daughter's education is 
                    suffering by not being in school? 
                            A.   Yes, I think that it's suffering in the sense 
                    that her education is being denied.  She needs a full time 
                    education every day, and I think yes, in that sense it is 
                            Q.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what 
                    you're telling us is you're lucky to be in a situation 
                    where your mother is actually in the School District and 
                    is able to give her--
                                 MR. COLE:  Objection, your Honor.  Leading 
                    the witness.
                                 THE COURT:  Sustained.
                                 MR. POTTER:   I shouldn't ask the question.  
                    Actually, I'm just restating what she already said.  
                    That's good enough. 
                                 THE WITNESS:  I am fortunate.
                                 MR. POTTER:   I move Exhibits 11 and 8. 
                                 THE COURT:  Any objection?
                                 MR. COLE:   No objection. 
                                 THE COURT:  All right, Plaintiff's Exhibits 8 
                    and 11 are moved into evidence.  How much more do you have 
                    for this witness?
                                 MR. POTTER:   Not much, I do not believe. 
                                 THE COURT:  Not much is a minute?  Five 
                    minutes?  Ten minutes?
                                 MR. POTTER:   My "not much" would be five 
                                 THE COURT:  Okay, then, take the five 
                    BY MR. POTTER:   
                            Q.   Have you made any attempt to receive home 
                    schooling information?
                            A.   Yes, my brother had made the attempt for me. 
                            Q.   How did he make that attempt? 
                            A.   He had gone to the school and asked exactly 
                    how to proceed with doing home schooling legally, and also 
                    the curriculum. 
                            Q.   Did your brother relay the information he 
                    received from the school to you? 
                            A.   Yes. 
                            Q.   After you had that conversation with your 
                    brother, what was your understanding as to whether or not 
                    your daughter would be held back from school? 
                            A.   My understanding is, is that there is a very 
                    high chance that she will be held back from school. 
                            Q.   Why is that? 
                            A.   Because she had missed so many days of 
                            Q.   Who did that come from? 
                            A.   That came from the principal.  Well, it came 
                    from my brother to me, but according to my brother it came 
                    from the principal and the guidance counselor he had 
                    spoken to as well. 
                            Q.   Do you believe that vaccinating yourself or 
                    your daughter is a sin? 
                            A.   Yes, I certainly do. 
                            Q.   What are the consequences of sin, under your 
                    understanding of scripture?
                            A.   My understanding, the consequences is that 
                    you will go to hell if you sin against God. 
                            Q.   So what are you going to do if this Court 
                    rules that you have to vaccinate your daughter?  Or, I'm 
                    sorry, what if this Court rules that your religious 
                    exemption is denied? 
                            A.   I will do home schooling and basically if 
                    they're still speaking about vaccinating my daughter, I 
                    will have her in Vermont for a while, where it is less 
                    stress and there's not as much stress regarding upon 
                    religious exemptions, because my sister lives in Vermont.
                                 THE COURT:  Let me make it clear to the 
                    witness, the issue before this Court is not whether you 
                    will be directed to vaccinate your daughter.  The issue is 
                    whether you're entitled to an exemption under State law 
                    which would permit you to send your child to school 
                    without vaccinating your daughter. 
                                 THE WITNESS:  Okay. 
                                 THE COURT:  So there's no issue here and the 
                    Court is not involved in determining whether you should be 
                    directed to vaccinate your child. 
                                 THE WITNESS:  Okay. 
                                 THE COURT:  There's a limited issue before 
                    the Court. 
                                 THE WITNESS:  I understand.
                                 MR. POTTER:   Well, your Honor, I do think 
                    the issues are related, because if the Court ruling says 
                    she does not have the religious exemption, if you read the 
                    statute, it would then require them to be vaccinated and 
                    the child protective services will then come after them 
                    for maltreatment.  In fact, that's the basis of the 
                    letter. it's not educational neglect, it's maltreatment.
                                 MR. COLE:   Well, the Court stated the issue 
                    succinctly, really, depending upon what the Court rules, 
                    the choice would be up to Ms. Hillman as to how she wanted 
                    to deal with the consequences if the Court were to decline 
                    to grant her application.  Then you would have to decide 
                    whether to remain here or go to Vermont 
                    or whatever.
                                 THE COURT:  Yes, that's a separate case, and 
                    that would involve a different agency of the government.  
                    That issue is not really before this Court.  There's a 
                    more limited issue before the Court, as far as I can tell.  
                    You can brief it, if you want, at the end.
                                 MR. POTTER:   Well, no--
                                 THE COURT:  I just don't want the witness, 
                    the plaintiff, to misunderstand what the focus of the 
                    Court is in conducting this hearing.  This hearing has to 
                    do with whether you are entitled to preliminary relief 
                    that would compel the Board of Education to accept your 
                    daughter as a student, based upon constitutional and 
                    statutory provisions.
                                 MR. POTTER:   Right.  In any event, the 
                    question has been asked and answered, so I guess that's 
                    all we need from that. 
                                 THE COURT:  Go ahead, proceed.  Do you have 
                    anything else?
                                 MR. POTTER:   Actually, no, I have nothing 
                                 THE COURT:  Okay.  We're going to break, 
                    because I need to do something else, and it is lunchtime.  
                    We're going to resume at 2:30, and you can conduct your 
                    cross-examination then. 
                                 Do you have anything else right now, any 
                    housekeeping issues?
                                 MR. COLE:   Nothing further, although I did 
                    want to mention, the Court had asked me to inquire with 
                    child protective services on that issue, and I did make 
                    inquiry, and apparently, the investigation that is pending 
                    concerning the Hillman family is solely with regard to the 
                    issue regarding the absence from school and they've 
                    assured me that pending a decision from the Court, they 
                    are not going to take any further steps to remove the 
                    child.  They're going to wait for the Court to make a 
                    decision before taking any further action in regard to the 
                                 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you for making 
                    an inquiry.  We'll take it up one step at a time.